Backstage dimmer - how to use it?

[Warren Bowery]

Hello, all....

We are in the second year of occupancy of our new K-12 school building.
The auditeria (flat-floor multi-purpose room) has wonderful stage lighting
and sound system.

The Colortran lighting system is very nice - 8 sets of border lights, 12
house-front elipsoidals, several more on the second electric, a boatload of
large fresnels, etc.

One of the features is a backstage dimmer to turn on stage lighting for
rehearsals. The idea is that you can set some stage lighting from the
console in the control booth (which you have to climb a ladder to get to)
and save it somehow to a little dimmer switch box backstage. This little
panel fits a standard outlet-sized box, and has a dimmer slider and an on-
off button. When the guy from the stage lighting subcontractor
demonstrated the equipment in July of 2003, he said to set the control
board for the stage lights as we want them for rehearsals, etc. Then,
press and hold the on/off button until the lights fade down. This worked
when he demonstrated it, but we have been unable to recreate this.

This guy was in a hurry when he gave us the demo on how stuff worked, and
we had to discover how a lot of things worked on our own. Trying to call
him or the business he works for over a year has yielded no results. E-
mailing him has gotten no response. So much for "service after the sale."

Any ideas about how this box works?

Thanks in advance!

[E. Lee Dickinson]

Post by Warren Bowery
Hello, all....
We are in the second year of occupancy of our new K-12 school building.
The auditeria (flat-floor multi-purpose room) has wonderful stage lighting
and sound system.
The Colortran lighting system is very nice - 8 sets of border lights, 12
house-front elipsoidals, several more on the second electric, a boatload of
large fresnels, etc.
One of the features is a backstage dimmer to turn on stage lighting for
rehearsals. The idea is that you can set some stage lighting from the
console in the control booth (which you have to climb a ladder to get to)
and save it somehow to a little dimmer switch box backstage. This little
panel fits a standard outlet-sized box, and has a dimmer slider and an on-
off button. When the guy from the stage lighting subcontractor
demonstrated the equipment in July of 2003, he said to set the control
board for the stage lights as we want them for rehearsals, etc. Then,
press and hold the on/off button until the lights fade down. This worked
when he demonstrated it, but we have been unable to recreate this.
This guy was in a hurry when he gave us the demo on how stuff worked, and
we had to discover how a lot of things worked on our own. Trying to call
him or the business he works for over a year has yielded no results. E-
mailing him has gotten no response. So much for "service after the sale."

Warren, it sounds like it's a simple "capture" system... it grabs the DMX
stream and remembers it, sortof like an ETC Reflection. What brand is it?
Do you not have any manuals? Can you not find them online? If you tell us
what brand/model it is, maybe someone can help.

[Warren Bowery]

There is a manual for the light board, which is a Colortran Innovator
48/96, and the dimmer pack is a Colortran i96. There is also mounted on
the wall back stage near the dimmers a device called a Leviton Light
Keeper. I cannot find any reference to this item on Colortran or Leviton's
websites. The only manual we received was for the control board. Like I
said, service was less than spectacular.

I must say that we are suffering from a bit of "technology shock" at our
school regarding theater equipment - prior to the construction of the new
school, we used a total of 12 lights mounted on a two wheeled light trees
to (quite poorly) illuminate the old stage in the gym. This was controlled
and dimmed by a 1970's era Packaged Lighting System board. Sound
reinforcement consisted of placing the basketball announcers mike on the
stage!

Post by E. Lee Dickinson
Warren, it sounds like it's a simple "capture" system... it grabs the
DMX stream and remembers it, sortof like an ETC Reflection. What brand
is it? Do you not have any manuals? Can you not find them online? If
you tell us what brand/model it is, maybe someone can help.

[Roger T.]

Is the person asking the question a staff member, or student?

Personally, being the Manager/TD of a school district owned theatre that
acts primarily as a communtity theatre, I don't believe in giving out
information directly to students. The "correct" and safe path is via the
school's staff.

The last thing anyone wants, from bitter experience, is permitting students
unfettered access to theatre equipment.


--
Cheers
Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/

[E. Lee Dickinson]

Post by Roger T.
Is the person asking the question a staff member, or student?
Personally, being the Manager/TD of a school district owned theatre that
acts primarily as a communtity theatre, I don't believe in giving out
information directly to students. The "correct" and safe path is via the
school's staff.
The last thing anyone wants, from bitter experience, is permitting students
unfettered access to theatre equipment.

I remember being incredibly frustrated by that attitude as a highschooler,
and even during college. Now that I've spent some time as an educator as
well, I've gotta say I disagree with the spirit of your post.

When a student takes initiative to go out, find information, and better his
knowledge of a subject, that's a remarkable thing. We should be handing out
opportunities on a silver platter, not limiting them.

Roger, I'm not intending to say that you're wrong, only to voice my opinion.
I understand your response has been tempered by previous bad experiences.
But to me, experiences are how learning is done, wether good or bad. No one
is going to hurt themselves trying to program an entry preset. That it might
inconveniance someone isn't good enough for me.

I have worked as a guest artist and lecturer at several highschools around
Virginia. Theatre students (and I'm sure other disciplines as well) tend to
be very passionate about learning the art. However, in the highschools
here, they're not permitted to touch the lights; that job is reserved for
maintenance personel who may or may not get to it, and who certainly can't
be expeced to sit through a rehearsal or full-up focus session. Kids can't
change lamps. In many places, they're not even allowed access to the lights
in order to change gel or gobos.

I can say for certain that if, as a student, that had been my impression of
Theatre, it never would have caught on for me.

I was lucky in that I had a private education, and our teachers weren't
terrified of lawsuits, equipment replacement, or their own ignorance.
Furthermore, they were willing to say "let me show you" instead of "it's
complicated, I'll do it." The really good teachers would say "go play with
it for a while, then I'll show you." It drove me absolutely crazy when I
was forbidden to do something which was perfectly within my understanding
and abilities.

Anyway, I suspect this was an educator asking. Again, I applaud the
initiative. Some teachers just go about without ever trying to expand their
own potential as educators.

[Roger T.]

"E. Lee Dickinson"

Post by E. Lee Dickinson
I have worked as a guest artist and lecturer at several highschools around
Virginia. Theatre students (and I'm sure other disciplines as well) tend to
be very passionate about learning the art. However, in the highschools
here, they're not permitted to touch the lights; that job is reserved for
maintenance personel who may or may not get to it, and who certainly can't
be expeced to sit through a rehearsal or full-up focus session. Kids can't
change lamps. In many places, they're not even allowed access to the lights
in order to change gel or gobos.

"Maintenance" staff are not permitted to operate any of the theatre's
equipment, and teachers are limited to what they have access to. They have
no access to the sound and lighting booths, nor to back stage and dressing
rooms. The two drama teachers at my school have no technical training and
couldn't hang a light or connect a mic if their lives depended on tit.
Custodial staff clean the theatre and maintenance staff are there for any
job that requires a tradesman's ticket only.

The theatre I manage is in a middle school, hence my distrust of al students
at that level. At middle school level, there are three kinds of students,
the ones who are in the class because there were dumped there by
administration as no other teacher wanted them in the class during that
block, the "it's an easy course" group and the smallest, the "I like drama"
group. Sadly, the latter make up only a small percentage of the classes.

However, there is the odd student at this level who is a "keener" and I more
than encourage them. Most of the "volunteer" students walk over the from
the local high school, about a 20 minute walk away. There are a core of
about nine of them. These students are trusted, and for many for non
professional shows they get to run lights and sound, act as follow spots
ops, carp grips, lx grips etc.. They are the only students I let operate
any of the theatre's equipment. They can all hang and focus, change lamps,
run cable and soca, set up mics and monitor speakers etc. and I have sets of
keys that they can use while on duty that give them complete access to the
theatre and storage lockers. For professional shows I have two paid
technicians for sound ops and or head carp, but I still use the students,
usually grades 11 and 12, as grips and spot ops.

Since the late 1980s, when I started this job, well over two dozen students
that have volunteered at the theatre have gone on to professional positions
after graduation.

When push comes to shove, this is a community theatre first and a classroom
for middle school "drama" second. I cannot afford the risk of showing up
one hour before curtain and, if I'm lucky, find a note from a teacher that
the "sound system sounds 'funny'" or that a dimmer "doesn't work" because
some kid has cranked the sound system and blown the speakers or over loaded
a dimmer.


--
Cheers
Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/

[Dmx Designer]

Post by Roger T.

Post by Roger T.
Is the person asking the question a staff member, or student?
Personally, being the Manager/TD of a school district owned theatre that
acts primarily as a communtity theatre, I don't believe in giving out
information directly to students. The "correct" and safe path is via the
school's staff.
The last thing anyone wants, from bitter experience, is permitting

students

Post by Roger T.
unfettered access to theatre equipment.

I remember being incredibly frustrated by that attitude as a highschooler,
and even during college. Now that I've spent some time as an educator as
well, I've gotta say I disagree with the spirit of your post.
When a student takes initiative to go out, find information, and better his
knowledge of a subject, that's a remarkable thing. We should be handing out
opportunities on a silver platter, not limiting them.
Roger, I'm not intending to say that you're wrong, only to voice my opinion.
I understand your response has been tempered by previous bad experiences.
But to me, experiences are how learning is done, wether good or bad. No one
is going to hurt themselves trying to program an entry preset. That it might
inconveniance someone isn't good enough for me.

=====================================================

I would tend to follow Roger's path. In a K-12 school... Kids and even most
custodians, do not have the electrical knowledge
to understand what Dimmer profiles are, loading a transformer for maximum
efficiency, patching the console "softpatching" and then we could go into
the "fly systems" and/or rigging.. Loads, safety cables, hang points. etc...
We often have camlok high amperage power taps, and 50 amp stage pockets...
Very dangerous if kids shove coathangers into them!

It is often rare to find a professional theatrical electrician working in a
school, More likely "could happen" in a University System.

I've seen and heard of some very traumatic plasma burns, from "tech crew"
wannabies getting into a dimmer rack who had no business tinkering inside
such high power devices. But this is the nature of inquiring minds want to
know... We have to first protect our kids, then teach them if they have the
electrical background theory to comprehend what and where we are going with
lighting design.

I recently setup a high school's new 96 ETC Sensor and Unison system. (I'm a
retired L.D. who once worked for shows like Alvin Ailey, and the Ice
Capades.) The school's FOH catwalk position has over 60 Source Fours. All 19
and 26 degree fixtures, and another 12 Par64's. We set up specific lighting
areas A1-A6 for apron areas... S1-S5 for main stage areas, and U1-U4 for
upstage throws.. All using 45 degree McCandless technique and in all of our
typical applications... none of the FOH fixtures normally need to be
repositioned except maybe for tweaking in a major Musical production. For
concerts, awards ceremonies, debates... all the board op needs to do is
bring up the respective faders for the areas... In all cases... the look can
be accomplished, and no rigging changes need to occur above the auditorium
by ANYONE, other than by the head electrician.

I spent countless hours focusing, and getting the school in top shape...
Only to find that some off the wall amateur group talent show type of
event - would come in... and without the proper supervision of the
"space"... kids got up into the FOH positions and bent pipes, pulled Stage
Pin off a few of the fixture's Teflon cords... and made a colossal mess. All
done in less than 30 minutes for work that took days to perfect... And
ofcourse... nobody is mature enough to stand accountable for messing up the
FOH lighting plot.

Another example: The Unison Houselights system, is tied into the ETC dimmers
via a Ethernet computer network. We don't want the teachers or students
getting into the programming of that system.. ETC specifically won't give
out the Light Manager Software until you pay to get trained... a good $750+
course... But they know how fudged up a system can be thrown into, by
incompetent operators, or folks who have no business getting into that
aspect of the operations of the system.

Yet... in this particular school... JC HS, the auditorium is used by the
music dept band teachers. Each one has his/her own personal desires as to
how they want the wall preset system (Unison) to work for them. So what
happens when they have no person to oversee the system such as I? They each
download the manuals and then start tinkering with the hidden buttons. The
final outcome, is that the network has gone down many times. Even locked up.
Then I get a call or the ETC rep. He BTW charges $75/hr. for a service
charge. System gets restored for maybe a month, and we go thru this all over
again.

When I contracted "free" with the school system... (I get paid to do their
annual major Musical production) I offered to come over at anytime to setup
and re-program their wall stations and the main Express 48/96 to any of
their wants and wishes. Yet will they pick up the phone and call? It's a
free call... NOPE... Thye rather blindly tinker as in a hit or mess trial by
error approach. The outcome is retrograde in production technique and
design... Then I come over for the Annual musical and the audiences go
ballistic in awes and wows with the special effects that one can do with
such a quality board as the ETC Express and intelligent lights that I bring
in to show and teach anyone interested - in how to program and run.

Then they crash the "flys" onto the fly rail all the time.... or worse... a
fly batten starts to accelerate swiftly skyward, because the weights were
not removed when a flat or set was unhung. I see it all the time... fly rail
pins... never locked or secured. Many, many disasters just backing up to
happen. It's a given over there....

Finally... when many folks get into the mix and I'm generalizing as them
being novices, or non professionals... trying to troubleshoot a failed
networked DMX system, and various processors when there's unlimited access
of folks constantly messing in areas they should not be... only makes
finding what went wrong much more difficult & time consuming.

I have no problem with training the elements of lumens, translucency, gobo
projection, complementary and additive/subtractive color mixing to capable
Juniors or Seniors who happen to be going into the Entertainment business.
But all too often... kids at the lower level are just interested in flashing
lights like a disco club.... I see no logic in how healthy that is when you
have a rig of over 300-400 fixtures all using high wattage halogens. Very
costly in bulb expenditures, and just for reference... Mismanagement of the
JC HS houselights system... costs them $800/mo. in energy costs... I could
see plenty of text books could be bought for that waste of energy.

Yet the school can not comprehend using dimmer profiles, to lower the
voltage, or setup macros to shut down the houselights when daily classes
change and the space is left empty for 3 or more periods each day.

In the business... if we did this kind of wasteful energy blundering... we'd
be fired or not in business very long. It's not a matter of allowing whom to
have fun, but it's a matter of production and/or operation costs. My cohorts
believe that if we are to pass the decades of hard knocks onto the next
generations of future L.D'.s or electricians... that we teach them the
correct and proper way to do it profitably, and more importantly...
efficiently and safely.

I could go on with many more examples.. but I teach the local H.S.'s...
lighting crews... only when the kids have taken enough physics, and basic
electrical theory in science classes... so that what I offer can be
understood and addressed as if the student were taking a ET (electrical
technology) or EE(electrical engineering) course at their nearest community
college. I learned this way, and it took me far and many travels in my
time... Now... I build my own dimmers, and network systems for many non
profits. But I don't short change anybody. I give them a rock solid system
that will hold up for years. Most schools around here... won't renovate
their lighting rigs... but for every 40 yrs.

Just my 2 cents... in the debate of competent operators, in schools, and
community theatres.

Dmx Bill

[DuncanWood]

Post by Dmx Designer
I would tend to follow Roger's path. In a K-12 school... Kids and even most
custodians, do not have the electrical knowledge
to understand what Dimmer profiles are, loading a transformer for maximum
efficiency, patching the console "softpatching"

& that's how they learn. None of those have any potential for a hazard,
other than posiibly showing up the incompetence of staff.

Post by Dmx Designer
and then we could go into
the "fly systems" and/or rigging.. Loads, safety cables, hang points. etc...
We often have camlok high amperage power taps, and 50 amp stage pockets...
Very dangerous if kids shove coathangers into them!

Well about as dangerous as any other non protected socket that you can
shove a coathanagar into.

[Laurence Payne]

Post by DuncanWood

Post by Dmx Designer
and then we could go into
the "fly systems" and/or rigging.. Loads, safety cables, hang points. etc...
We often have camlok high amperage power taps, and 50 amp stage pockets...
Very dangerous if kids shove coathangers into them!

Well about as dangerous as any other non protected socket that you can
shove a coathanagar into.

If a kid does something silly nowadays, we don't say "Silly kid!" we
say "Who can I sue?". You're on a hiding to nothing letting a
student near ANYTHING. Sad.

[Lawrence Stromski]

In my experience, it should actually be quite the reverse: some of the
teachers and maintenance staff shouldn't be allowed unfettered access to the
lighting gear! I've seen maintenance staff wack the hell out of Patt 23's
whilst moving an a-frame, completely unaware of what was above them, I've
seen teachers handle patching systems, 63A single phase, MCBs, etc without
the slightest clue of what they are dealing with.
A good many of my student colleagues have had the good sense to go and read
manuals, books, web sites and so on before handling the lighting equipment.
Just my 2c worth.
--
-Lawrence Stromski.

Post by Laurence Payne

Post by DuncanWood

Post by Dmx Designer
and then we could go into
the "fly systems" and/or rigging.. Loads, safety cables, hang points. etc...
We often have camlok high amperage power taps, and 50 amp stage pockets...
Very dangerous if kids shove coathangers into them!

Well about as dangerous as any other non protected socket that you can
shove a coathanagar into.

If a kid does something silly nowadays, we don't say "Silly kid!" we
say "Who can I sue?". You're on a hiding to nothing letting a
student near ANYTHING. Sad.

[Christopher Jahn]

Post by Roger T.
Is the person asking the question a staff member, or
student?
Personally, being the Manager/TD of a school district owned
theatre that acts primarily as a communtity theatre, I
don't believe in giving out information directly to
students. The "correct" and safe path is via the school's
staff.
The last thing anyone wants, from bitter experience, is
permitting students unfettered access to theatre equipment.

When I was in High School, the drama club raised the money
ourselves to replace the 1923 piano dimmers. Needless to say
that we the students were the only ones who could run the new
system, and we kept it that way.

WE also had unlimited access to the stage and its shop
equipment. Eventually, we built scenery for several local
community theatre groups, and I'm now working professionally.
So I don't think much of your opinion on the subject.

[Warren Bowery]

I am the music director/technical theater director.

Post by Roger T.
Is the person asking the question a staff member, or student?
Personally, being the Manager/TD of a school district owned theatre
that acts primarily as a communtity theatre, I don't believe in giving
out information directly to students. The "correct" and safe path is
via the school's staff.
The last thing anyone wants, from bitter experience, is permitting
students unfettered access to theatre equipment.
--
Cheers
Roger T.
Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/

[Frank Wood]

Post by Warren Bowery
I am the music director/technical theater director.

There was a thread on RATS, not long ago, on a similar subject. The consensus
was that they could not be combined. Please tell us all how you manage to do
this.

Frank Wood
***@aol.com

[Torrance Bell]

Does 'music' include instrument playing catagories such as 'band' or
'dance' classes? I can see a teacher being able to do dance, but not
band/chorus/etc.

Torrance

Post by Frank Wood

Post by Warren Bowery
I am the music director/technical theater director.

There was a thread on RATS, not long ago, on a similar subject. The consensus
was that they could not be combined. Please tell us all how you manage to do
this.
Frank Wood

[Warren Bowery]

My job:
General Music Teacher - grades 4-12
Band Director - grades 4-12 (includes marching, concert, and pep band)
Choir Director - grades 4-12
HS Musical Director
Our production staff includes myself, a scenery director and a part-time
volunteer choreographer.

Until a few years ago, I taught all music classes 1-12. I have played
guitar and sax in various local bands in my spare time. If you want to
find out more about my department, visit www.bright.net/~wbowery/ohs.htm

Warren

Post by Torrance Bell
Does 'music' include instrument playing catagories such as 'band' or
'dance' classes? I can see a teacher being able to do dance, but not
band/chorus/etc.
Torrance

Post by Frank Wood

Post by Warren Bowery
I am the music director/technical theater director.

There was a thread on RATS, not long ago, on a similar subject. The
consensus was that they could not be combined. Please tell us all how
you manage to do this.
Frank Wood

[Stuart Wheaton]

Post by Warren Bowery
Until a few years ago, I taught all music classes 1-12. I have played
guitar and sax in various local bands in my spare time. If you want to
find out more about my department, visit www.bright.net/~wbowery/ohs.htm
Warren

I was gonna suggest that you'd get more useful help if you
noted where you are, then I saw Bright.net which used to be
Mom's ISP, so where exactly is Ottoville? Somewhere in the
western/central Ohio area, yes? Perhaps somebody nearby can
pop over and give you better service than your rep. It's a
stretch, but have you tried Vincent Lighting in Kentucky
(Cinci) or their main office in Cleveland? I've always
had great luck with their service and support guys.

Sorry I can't offer more, I'm not a control systems kind of guy.

Stuart

[Lee A. Goldstein]

Post by Roger T.
Is the person asking the question a staff member, or student?
Personally, being the Manager/TD of a school district owned theatre that
acts primarily as a communtity theatre, I don't believe in giving out
information directly to students. The "correct" and safe path is via the
school's staff.
The last thing anyone wants, from bitter experience, is permitting students
unfettered access to theatre equipment.

That's utter bull. I am glad I do not attend your school.

I am a senior in high school. Our show budgets range from $20,000 to
$50,000. We have at least 5 mainstage production per school year, and
several hundred other productions including concerts, assemblies, and
outside groups.

I am the Lighting Designer for our productions and work as the House
Electrician for outside groups. And when I say work, I mean it. We are
considered school staff members. There are about a dozen or so of us
who receive a paycheck every two weeks. It is no easy task either, but
we like doing it. In a few weeks we will be hosts to former President
William J. Clinton. I will serve as the Technical Director for it. We
have had such greats as Salman Rushdie, Dave Barry, Roger Ebert, and
Madeleine Albright.

For our productions it is my job to design the lighting plot, do the
paperwork, submit shop orders, attend hang and circuit calls, and make
sure to adapt the director's vision. Each year there are between 3 and
6 kids who go into some form of Technical Theatre. Last year we had
two stage managers (one attending NCSA, the other Depaul), one
Technical Production major (attending BU), and one artist attending
Drexel who got her start working as a Scenic Artist. We produce award
winning shows. I was nominated for Excellence in Lighting Design from
the Papermill Awards. We won best show and five other awards. The
category in which I was nominated was filled with other _adult_
designers.

The stage crew at my high school is passionate about it. We do not
look at our theatre as a theatre, but as a playground. A place where
we can exercise our talents and grow. The crew heads were freshman
once, and we grew and learned. But we failed along the way. We watched
what our elders did right and what they did wrong. Now it is our time
to "teach our children" what we learned.

Whoever told you that your playground is first a community theatre and
second a classroom is totally incorrect. First of all, every theatre
is a playground, whether you admit it or not. Secondly, this time in
your _students_ life is the prime time for their brain to absorb all
of the information. Give them a shot, they may surprise you.

Next year I will be studying Lighting Design in a theatre
conservatory. It was what I learned in my high school and my middle
school that allowed me to decide this early what I waned to do. Please
allow your students this pleasure.

-Lee A. Goldstein

[Laurence Payne]

Post by Lee A. Goldstein
For our productions it is my job to design the lighting plot, do the
paperwork, submit shop orders, attend hang and circuit calls, and make
sure to adapt the director's vision.

Who does the Risk Assessment?

[DuncanWood]

On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 23:34:48 +0100, Laurence Payne

Post by Laurence Payne

Post by Lee A. Goldstein
For our productions it is my job to design the lighting plot, do the
paperwork, submit shop orders, attend hang and circuit calls, and make
sure to adapt the director's vision.

Who does the Risk Assessment?

Everyones. Somebody might be responsible for writing it down, but you're
responsible for assesing the risk of anything you do. Your assesment may
stop at "I've been told to do it by somebody much more experienced than me
whom I trust" but as I've yet to meet someone who's never confuse Left &
right in a theatre then common sense should prevail.

[Frank Wood]

Post by Lee A. Goldstein

Post by Roger T.
Personally, being the Manager/TD of a school district owned theatre that
acts primarily as a communtity theatre, I don't believe in giving out
information directly to students. The "correct" and safe path is via the
school's staff.
The last thing anyone wants, from bitter experience, is permitting students
unfettered access to theatre equipment.

That's utter bull. I am glad I do not attend your school.

I agree. Restricting the supply of information to students is the last thing
any responsible teacher, of any subject, would want to do.

Most modern equipment is fairly bulletproof. Causing something to trip out is a
part of the learning process. "What did I do wrong?", and "Don't do it again".

If a student takes the trouble to read the handbook, and to invoke some arcane
facility of a lighting board, I am glad. Maybe he will show me how to do it,
should I ever need to.


Frank Wood
***@aol.com

[Roger T.]

Post by Frank Wood

Post by Lee A. Goldstein

Post by Roger T.
Personally, being the Manager/TD of a school district owned theatre that
acts primarily as a communtity theatre, I don't believe in giving out
information directly to students. The "correct" and safe path is via the
school's staff.
The last thing anyone wants, from bitter experience, is permitting students
unfettered access to theatre equipment.

That's utter bull. I am glad I do not attend your school.

I agree. Restricting the supply of information to students is the last thing
any responsible teacher, of any subject, would want to do.

Another person who didn't read what I wrote.

First of all, who suggested restricting the supply of information to
students? You should read what you quoted above in the context it was
written, not how you quoted it.

So, you'd permit unfettered middle school student access to theatre
equipment? Obviously, you don't work with children. Do you also condone
unfettered middle school student access to motor vehicles? What happens
when one of your unfettered middle school students incorrectly hangs a
lighting instrument over the audience's heads, doesn't or incorrectly fits
the safety chain, and the instrument falls from the rig?


--
Cheers
Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/

[DuncanWood]

Post by Roger T.

Post by Frank Wood

Post by Lee A. Goldstein

Post by Roger T.
Personally, being the Manager/TD of a school district owned theatre that
acts primarily as a communtity theatre, I don't believe in giving out
information directly to students. The "correct" and safe path is via the
school's staff.
The last thing anyone wants, from bitter experience, is permitting students
unfettered access to theatre equipment.

That's utter bull. I am glad I do not attend your school.

I agree. Restricting the supply of information to students is the last thing
any responsible teacher, of any subject, would want to do.

Another person who didn't read what I wrote.
First of all, who suggested restricting the supply of information to
students? You should read what you quoted above in the context it was
written, not how you quoted it.

The original request was for information, not for keys to the grid. Sadly
it is not unusual to come across teachers/school technicians who like to
retrict access to information to children in order to avoid their own lack
of knowledge becoming obvious. Restricting people/students activities to
what is safe is a different situation.

Post by Roger T.
So, you'd permit unfettered middle school student access to theatre
equipment? Obviously, you don't work with children. Do you also condone
unfettered middle school student access to motor vehicles? What happens
when one of your unfettered middle school students incorrectly hangs a
lighting instrument over the audience's heads, doesn't or incorrectly fits
the safety chain, and the instrument falls from the rig?
--
Cheers
Roger T.
Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/

[Ben Horton]

Post by Roger T.
So, you'd permit unfettered middle school student access to theatre
equipment? Obviously, you don't work with children. Do you also condone
unfettered middle school student access to motor vehicles? What happens
when one of your unfettered middle school students incorrectly hangs a
lighting instrument over the audience's heads, doesn't or incorrectly fits
the safety chain, and the instrument falls from the rig?

You have safety chains? As a Student I asked my High School to get them
and they still have not and that was 4 years ago. There is nothing wrong
with SOME students having unfettered access at any level. But your
right, I should not have been trusted to provide over 250 hours of free
theatre support to my school. When the "musical director" from our
Middle School is using the stage at the High School he refoucse my front
of house with a 2x4.

So if I was to ask, How do people go about cleaning their CD80 dimmer
racks, you would not tell me? OK so you might now because I am out of
High school, but what if I asked you 4 years ago? That sure is when I
had to clean at CD80 rack for the frist time after they got to much durt
in the air around it.

[Roger T.]

"Lee A. Goldstein"

Post by Lee A. Goldstein
Whoever told you that your playground is first a community theatre and
second a classroom is totally incorrect. First of all, every theatre
is a playground, whether you admit it or not. Secondly, this time in
your _students_ life is the prime time for their brain to absorb all
of the information. Give them a shot, they may surprise you.

The theatre I manager is a community theatre first according to my rules.
Nobody made that rule for me. It was a rule I insisted on before accepting
the position some 20 years ago.

A theatre is NOT a playground. Period!

You "play" in my theatre, and you're gone, for good.

Wish you people would read the whole thread, then you'd find out that the
theatre is attached to a middle school, not a high school. Hence, the "No
Student Access" rule. Middle school students are NOT mature enough.
Judging by the way they act, most North American high school and young 20
somethings are immature children into the bargain.

However, you should also read my comments about the high school students who
act as volunteer crew.


--
Cheers
Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/

[Dmx Designer]

My experiences with the theaters I work in and manage:

I agree with Roger... there is no place for "playground" in
semi and professional theater venues.

Be that said... I enjoy teaching all aspects, so that everyone who "trains"
and becomes competent, can have a pretty good shot at running a show from
plot design, hangs, strikes, etc... My point which I hold fast... is that
before hands go onto the gear... folks get trained and educated. There is no
holding back students, lay people, or theatrical majors from getting
involved with the learning and training process.. Those who don't wish to
follow that in our houses... won't be called to work a show.

Somebody mentioned not seeing a hazard of a 20A or a 50A, or 200A camlok
"power tap" from students... Well I can somewhat see the logic some might
have in thinking a breaker would trip. But I've also come onto a stage where
some clown shut off the breaker... inserted a coathanger into a 50 or 100A
Bates pocket... then proceeded to turn ON the breaker... Sending fire and
sparks out like a rocket.... Now this I just don't think is funny nor
prudent to allow anyone to do, or try. But I've seen kids do this... Why I
don't know... Most likely because they are fearless at that age... and do
not understand consequences often, until they are forced to... Like "ok"
he/she started a fire... so do they run and hide, or grab and extinguisher
or call the Fire Dept.? All of this I call playing around, and it's not
welcome on any stage I'm involved with. For god sake... most pockets are now
wired per dimmer and not some non-dim constant...Again I'm specifically
pointing fingers at the K-12 level... I'd expect more maturity of college
and older folks.

Point well taken in another post of folks hanging fixtures, without being
trained, not to over tighten, always use a safety cable, and how to properly
under and over hang fixtures. We often see this occur all the time in
theaters where supervision is very much lacking... Guy is up on top... FOH..
gelling a fixture and he/she drops the metal gel frame out the proscenium
opening to fall 30 feet onto rehearsal participants sitting below... Some
have gotten very seriously cut when the corner of such frame lands into
their skull. Totally preventable if this procedure was done correctly...
This is nearly eliminated by training, and supervision.

The other post about custodials or maintenance depts. changing bulbs... Well
sometimes I can see this for the houselights, with suspended ceilings. I
have no problem walking on the grid irons to relamp them. But how true as
one poster said.. about some custodial moving a A frame ladder and swipping
fixtures all across the batten to get to the one "burnt out". Even worse..
they tear up legs and headers with the improper ladders. I've seen them do
this when in fact.. they could have lowered the Electric batten to shoulder
height and not need a ladder at all... Go figure?

I have yet to see in High Schools where kids are taught how to calculate
beam angles, lumen output vs distance, and translucency ratios gels to total
lumens at the acting area... How to calculate buying a follow spot for their
particular venue?

In our community... few of the professional stage techies live here... Oh
maybe a handful of Union hires... due to the fact we only have 2 union
houses. Just won't support a large Union work force. All the rest have who
have made a name or took the business seriously... moved to larger cities
where the tech jobs paid, and the options were wide open for employment.

For myself... I returned back home to care give my folks.Otherwise they'd
have to go into retirement homes. I then have plenty of time to offer my
experience as a professional L.D. as time sees fit in my schedule and
bookings. I very much see the same kind of resistance... to structure and
orgainization of how the professionals, do the job, outside our small
community... Yet for those who resist learning from many of the masters like
myself... their venues never come up any notches in quality, compared to
those who are willing to follow the trade as in professiional management
skills possible. We see a huge visual difference in management of venues...
just by walking onto the stage. For my experiences... those on a more
trained level... are much more relaxing and least stressful. Things get done
the first time, and done right. Plus as the provebial experssion goes...
It's so nice not to have to reinvent the wheel every single production!

I have only one other Tech/LD in our town who has worked with 600+ dimmers.
Just having a venue what that capactiy, can tell you it also needs a robust
lighting console to cover the conventionals, plus add enough DMX universes
to manage all the moving lights.

When I moved back home... I found I was the only non union top end... L.D.
left in our town. So I took advantage of that... and offered to help any
High School bring up the Lighting capacity either by designing a new
renovation lighting system, or buy bringing in many of my intelligent
fixtues, or renting such. When I first came back to our home town... most
venues were just as they were 40 yrs. ago... Many went to DMX around 2000
for those who have upgraded. But most kept the same old fixtues... and the
lucky few... moved up to Source Fours, Clay Paky, Elation, High End, and
Colortan etc..

When I bring in moving lights... to a H.S. it's the first time any of the
kids have actually been able to see one up close. Then they get a treat to
learn how they're programmed to function. What saddens me... is that nobody
else in our city does this for the younger generation. Not even the Union
boys. My goal is from teaching via a disciplined approach, that we can keep
clasical theater techniques and practices from fading away. Talk to the
classical instructors... like contemporary dance, or classical opera... and
you'll find that discipline is what gets you in to work there... Not playing
or play as you go which some folks think is "ok" to learn the ropes. It's
obvious when I visit a show... Opera, or Dance... or Off Broadway skits...
as to the quality of the tech and teamwork behind the scenes. For myself...I
want to teach this to every house I work in... So that we too... can be
respected for the level of quality that our shows achieve.

Be that said... it's all hard work, and for many of us... even at the older
age of 60... it's still alot of fun. In no way am I telling anybody what
works for you... From my discipline of being trained by tough masters... I
find it's the method that also works for me... I also interned at the CIA
(Culinary Institute of America) and trained as a chef. I followed that path
for nearly 20 yrs. as well, and believe me... Chef training probably is one
of the most disciplined occupations in the worlld. Many just can't take that
kind of instruction... Just like the Military is a turn off to some folks.

I rest my thoughts on this topic... Interesting thread though.

Dmx Bill

[Simon Waldman]

Post by Roger T.
Wish you people would read the whole thread, then you'd find out that the
theatre is attached to a middle school, not a high school. Hence, the "No
Student Access" rule. Middle school students are NOT mature enough.

Erm... forgive my ignorange, but not being entirely sure where you are,
what does "middle school" mean in this context? What ages are we talking?

[Charles R. Kaiser]

Post by Simon Waldman
Erm... forgive my ignorange, but not being entirely sure where you are,
what does "middle school" mean in this context? What ages are we talking?

Middle School is usually the grades from 6 to 8 (approx. 11 years old to
14). High School starts in grade 9.

[Simon Waldman]

Post by Charles R. Kaiser

Post by Simon Waldman
Erm... forgive my ignorange, but not being entirely sure where you
are, what does "middle school" mean in this context? What ages are we
talking?

Middle School is usually the grades from 6 to 8 (approx. 11 years old to
14). High School starts in grade 9.

Thanks.

FWIW, at that age I doubt that I'd have been allowed to do much other
than push faders, if that.

[Clive Mitchell]

Post by Simon Waldman

Post by Charles R. Kaiser
Middle School is usually the grades from 6 to 8 (approx. 11 years
old to 14). High School starts in grade 9.

FWIW, at that age I doubt that I'd have been allowed to do much other
than push faders, if that.

When I was 11 I was re-routing the busbar chambers around the whole
school so everyone could have unlimited power. Unfortunately the
unlimited power would spontaneously discharge through teachers and
pupils as they attempted to reattach the big crocodile clips when they
fell off.

[Roger T.]

Post by Charles R. Kaiser

Post by Simon Waldman
Erm... forgive my ignorange, but not being entirely sure where you are,
what does "middle school" mean in this context? What ages are we talking?

Middle School is usually the grades from 6 to 8 (approx. 11 years old to
14). High School starts in grade 9.

Ours is grades 7 to 9, so add a year to the above ages. Obviously not
mature enough to be let loose in a theatre. But then, neither are adults,
which is why one has TDs, ATDs and managers.


--
Cheers
Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/

[Frank Wood]

Post by Roger T.
Ours is grades 7 to 9, so add a year to the above ages. Obviously not
mature enough to be let loose in a theatre. But then, neither are adults,
which is why one has TDs, ATDs and managers.

In other words, don't tell anyone anything other what YOU think they should
know.

Such arrogance beggars belief.


Frank Wood
***@aol.com

[Peter Herman]

Post by Frank Wood

Post by Roger T.
Ours is grades 7 to 9, so add a year to the above ages. Obviously not
mature enough to be let loose in a theatre. But then, neither are adults,
which is why one has TDs, ATDs and managers.

In other words, don't tell anyone anything other what YOU think they should
know.
Such arrogance beggars belief.
Frank Wood

No - it means don't let anyone do a job for which they are not trained -
either by you, your staff, or by previous experience elsewhere verified
by you to be sure that they know what they are doing.

As TD you are responsible for both turning out the product and
protecting the facility. In school and amdram settings it may also mean
being a teacher, watch dog and an evaluator of who has the maturity (and
not just in absolute years) to do particular jobs.

Our last show and current show have had light board ops in their young
teens. Good responsible kids with the ability to follow a written
checklist to assure that everything is turned on and off correctly and
the sense and discipline to take their calls from the SM and not run
things as they choose (Frank - I know this is not how you do it but it
is how we and every other theatre I've worked in does and people who
don't respect our rules don't work here again). They will soon be ready
to do some hang and focus, lamp replacement etc. Are they ready to
design a show - no. Will they be if they work with us into their late
teens - probably if their early promise continues.

I have college students from the local university designing and hanging
shows here with some regularity. If the design instructor (who I know
well) says they are ready I can rely on his word even if I don't
personally know the student. If director wants to use someone whose
work I don't know, they don't get the OK until I check with their mentor
and/or the TD of houses where they have worked. If I don't feel
comfortable with their qualifications, they don't get used. It may seem
hard assed but my money paid for the theatre and equipment in it so I am
not about to allow someone who I don't trust endanger my investment
and/or my audience and actors.


Peter
Technical Director/Resident Designer
No Strings Theatre Company/Black Box Theatre
http://www.no-strings.org
http://www.no-strings.org/Peter

[Roger T.]

"Peter Herman"

[Snip exactly what I (Strive) to do]

Well done and well said Peter.

Obviously, Mr. Wood likes to put his own negative spin things.


--
Cheers
Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/

[Roger T.]

"Frank Wood"

Post by Frank Wood

Post by Roger T.
Ours is grades 7 to 9, so add a year to the above ages. Obviously not
mature enough to be let loose in a theatre. But then, neither are adults,
which is why one has TDs, ATDs and managers.

In other words, don't tell anyone anything other what YOU think they should
know.
Such arrogance beggars belief.

Who EVER said that? I teach people everyday. You really should stop
putting YOUR spin on what other people write.

"Let loose" is what I wrote. I never mentioned keeping information back.

Perhaps a remedial reading course is required?


--
Cheers
Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/

[E. Lee Dickinson]

Post by Roger T.
"Frank Wood"

Post by Frank Wood

Post by Roger T.
Ours is grades 7 to 9, so add a year to the above ages. Obviously not
mature enough to be let loose in a theatre. But then, neither are adults,
which is why one has TDs, ATDs and managers.

In other words, don't tell anyone anything other what YOU think they should
know.
Such arrogance beggars belief.

Who EVER said that? I teach people everyday. You really should stop
putting YOUR spin on what other people write.
"Let loose" is what I wrote. I never mentioned keeping information back.
Perhaps a remedial reading course is required?

Sure, read the following out loud. :)

"Personally, being the Manager/TD of a school district owned theatre that
acts primarily as a communtity theatre, I don't believe in giving out
information directly to students. The "correct" and safe path is via the
school's staff."

You've since clarified your point, which I agree with. As I said in my first
post of disagreement, it was the spirit in which it struck me that seemed
wrong. Not giving information out to students seemed crazy. I understand
your point now, though.

You can't let people run amok. You can, however, teach them how to do
something properly. Bingo, we agree. My disagreement came from the fact
that the OP was asking for information, not "unfettered access."

[DuncanWood]

Post by Roger T.
"Frank Wood"

Post by Frank Wood

Post by Roger T.
Ours is grades 7 to 9, so add a year to the above ages. Obviously not
mature enough to be let loose in a theatre. But then, neither are adults,
which is why one has TDs, ATDs and managers.

In other words, don't tell anyone anything other what YOU think they should
know.
Such arrogance beggars belief.

Who EVER said that? I teach people everyday. You really should stop
putting YOUR spin on what other people write.
"Let loose" is what I wrote. I never mentioned keeping information back.
Perhaps a remedial reading course is required?
--
Cheers
Roger T.
Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/

Well to quote " I don't believe in giving out information directly to
students. The "correct" and safe path is via the school's staff."
Nobody has suggested letting students have unfetterd access to hazardous
equipment.

[Roger T.]

"DuncanWood"

Post by DuncanWood
Well to quote " I don't believe in giving out information directly to
students. The "correct" and safe path is via the school's staff."
Nobody has suggested letting students have unfetterd access to hazardous
equipment.

This was in response to the following request for info via this newsgroup.
Perhaps you should quote in context?

Quote: -

We are in the second year of occupancy of our new K-12 school building.
The auditeria (flat-floor multi-purpose room) has wonderful stage lighting
and sound system.

The Colortran lighting system is very nice - 8 sets of border lights, 12
house-front elipsoidals, several more on the second electric, a boatload of
large fresnels, etc.

One of the features is a backstage dimmer to turn on stage lighting for
rehearsals. The idea is that you can set some stage lighting from the
console in the control booth (which you have to climb a ladder to get to)
and save it somehow to a little dimmer switch box backstage. This little
panel fits a standard outlet-sized box, and has a dimmer slider and an on-
off button. When the guy from the stage lighting subcontractor
demonstrated the equipment in July of 2003, he said to set the control
board for the stage lights as we want them for rehearsals, etc. Then,
press and hold the on/off button until the lights fade down. This worked
when he demonstrated it, but we have been unable to recreate this.

This guy was in a hurry when he gave us the demo on how stuff worked, and
we had to discover how a lot of things worked on our own. Trying to call
him or the business he works for over a year has yielded no results. E-
mailing him has gotten no response. So much for "service after the sale."

Any ideas about how this box works?

Thanks in advance!


Unquote.

I stick by my previous comments, "I don't believe in giving out information
directly to students. The "correct" and safe path is via the school's
staff."

This is not the spin that some people put on my comments by implying that I
don't believe in passing on (Teaching) information to students. The two are
completely different. I will teach any student anything that I know, I'll
also teach adults anything I know. However, I will not pass out the above
sort of technical information to students via this newsgroup that should be
given to them by teachers or other qualified staff.


--
Cheers
Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/

[Lee A. Goldstein]

Post by Roger T.
"Lee A. Goldstein"

Post by Lee A. Goldstein
Whoever told you that your playground is first a community theatre and
second a classroom is totally incorrect. First of all, every theatre
is a playground, whether you admit it or not. Secondly, this time in
your _students_ life is the prime time for their brain to absorb all
of the information. Give them a shot, they may surprise you.

The theatre I manager is a community theatre first according to my rules.
Nobody made that rule for me. It was a rule I insisted on before accepting
the position some 20 years ago.
A theatre is NOT a playground. Period!
You "play" in my theatre, and you're gone, for good.

I beg to differ. Why are you in this business?

I am studying to become a Lighting Designer and a Master Electrician
so I can learn everything I can about the field. I do not want a 9 - 5
job sitting in some cubicle somewhere. I want to be a problem solver.
I will use the theatre as a playground.

Post by Roger T.
Wish you people would read the whole thread, then you'd find out that the
theatre is attached to a middle school, not a high school. Hence, the "No
Student Access" rule. Middle school students are NOT mature enough.
Judging by the way they act, most North American high school and young 20
somethings are immature children into the bargain.

I can't speak for everyone here, but I have read the thread. Case in
point, "the theatre is attached to a middle school." Think of the
great resources these kids are made to believe they have!

When I was in middle school I was invited to attend crew calls for my
high school. Best gift I was ever given.

Post by Roger T.
However, you should also read my comments about the high school students who
act as volunteer crew.

I did, and I think that's great. Can't you get them to teach
interested middle school students how things work? Kids will often
listen to their peers.


(Sorry to derail the thread guys. Email me if you would like to carry
out this discussion off-list.)

-Lee A. Goldstein

[Peter Herman]

[snip]

Post by Lee A. Goldstein

Post by Roger T.
A theatre is NOT a playground. Period!
You "play" in my theatre, and you're gone, for good.

I beg to differ. Why are you in this business?
I am studying to become a Lighting Designer and a Master Electrician
so I can learn everything I can about the field. I do not want a 9 - 5
job sitting in some cubicle somewhere. I want to be a problem solver.
I will use the theatre as a playground.

I think that the problem here is what is meant by "play". Because you
are going to do this as a professional I expect (hope?) that by "play"
you mean it that 1)it is something you enjoy so much that it doesn't
seem like "real work", 2) that it gives you a chance to stretch the
envelope of what you do as a designer/ME so that it is fun, 3) that each
show presents new challenges so that it is not hum drum 9-5 work. I am
assuming that you are well trained and therefore respect the proper use
of equipment which isn't at all contrary to "play" in the sense I've
used it here.

Unfortunately, play to many people - especially middle school students
and some amature tech wanna be's means casual enjoyment horsing around
doing something without necessarily using common sense, respecting the
equipment or paying attention to safety. Ever notice that school yard
play ground equipment is built to be practically indestructible and with
soft landing areas to minimize the damage that a user can do to him/her
self when they use it wrong? Theatre equipment while robust if well
designed was never meant to be indestructible. My concrete floor
wouldn't be very forgiving if you fell off the big ladder or out of the
grid on to it.

The first sort of play is welcome in my theatre, the second is not. I'm
responsible to my workers, my patrons and my insurer to run a safe
theatre. The first sort of play is perfectly consistent with doing this
- in fact people who know and enjoy what they are doing tend to work
better and safer. The second sort of play is literally an accident
waiting to happen and cannot be allowed by the person in charge if they
value their job and their facility.

Most professional and amateur theatre participants are in it because
they enjoy it. Amdram folks do it because they love it and because it
is a welcome change from their every day lives. Pros have the added
benefit of getting paid to do something they really like - though
sometimes after a really bad tech rehearsal or backbreaking load in you
gotta wonder :-)

Peter

[Roger T.]

"Peter Herman"

Paraphrasing "Play to learn Vs Play to horse around."

Post by Peter Herman
The first sort of play is welcome in my theatre, the second is not. I'm
responsible to my workers, my patrons and my insurer to run a safe
theatre. The first sort of play is perfectly consistent with doing this -
in fact people who know and enjoy what they are doing tend to work better
and safer. The second sort of play is literally an accident waiting to
happen and cannot be allowed by the person in charge if they value their
job and their facility.

Exactly.


--
Cheers
Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/

[Frank Wood]

Post by Peter Herman
Most professional and amateur theatre participants are in it because
they enjoy it. Amdram folks do it because they love it and because it
is a welcome change from their every day lives. Pros have the added
benefit of getting paid to do something they really like - though
sometimes after a really bad tech rehearsal or backbreaking load in you
gotta wonder :-)

There is an aphorism: " If you can't do it right, don't do it". While very
true, it does imply the knowledge of how the job should be done right.

You may not have the right tools; you may not have the right equipment. You may
have some physical problem. The key is knowledge.

Frank Wood
***@aol.com

[Robotboy8]

Post by Frank Wood
There is an aphorism: " If you can't do it right, don't do it". While very
true, it does imply the knowledge of how the job should be done right.
You may not have the right tools; you may not have the right equipment. You may
have some physical problem. The key is knowledge.
Frank Wood

I happen to agree... but I'm surprised you feel this way, would it not be far
more professional to get the right tool no matter the expense?

[charles]

Post by Robotboy8

Post by Frank Wood
There is an aphorism: " If you can't do it right, don't do it". While
very true, it does imply the knowledge of how the job should be done
right.
You may not have the right tools; you may not have the right equipment.
You may have some physical problem. The key is knowledge.

I happen to agree... but I'm surprised you feel this way, would it not be
far more professional to get the right tool no matter the expense?

True, but,

1. Does the person know you need "the right tool"?

2. If they do, can they afford to buy it? Not everyone has an unlimited
budget.

[David Lee]

Robotboy8 wrote...

Post by Robotboy8

Post by Frank Wood
There is an aphorism: " If you can't do it right, don't do it". While very
true, it does imply the knowledge of how the job should be done right.
You may not have the right tools; you may not have the right equipment.

You

Post by Robotboy8

Post by Frank Wood
may
have some physical problem. The key is knowledge.

I happen to agree... but I'm surprised you feel this way, would it not be far
more professional to get the right tool no matter the expense?

No, that's the route of the wealthy enthusiastic amateur - buy all the best
tools and the results will be perfect! A more experienced practitioner
(professional or amateur) knows what tools are essential but also
understands how to get the best out of what he has without blowing the
entire budget on the latest gadgets. The great thing about theatre (and
visual arts in general) is that a good bunch of technical artists can get
brilliant results out of the most unmitigated heap of junk imaginable.
Better kit doesn't guarantee better results - it just makes them easier to
achieve.

David

[Frank Wood]

Post by David Lee
No, that's the route of the wealthy enthusiastic amateur - buy all the best
tools and the results will be perfect! A more experienced practitioner
(professional or amateur) knows what tools are essential but also
understands how to get the best out of what he has without blowing the
entire budget on the latest gadgets. The great thing about theatre (and
visual arts in general) is that a good bunch of technical artists can get
brilliant results out of the most unmitigated heap of junk imaginable.
Better kit doesn't guarantee better results - it just makes them easier to
achieve.

It's not just the best tools, it's the right ones. Take screws. There are more
varieties of screwheads than I can keep track of. Slotted, Allen, and crosshead
(two sorts), I can keep track of. Then there is TORX, and I know not what else.
Taking the sharp point off a Philips driver will minimise the trouble when
using it with a normal crosshead, as will grinding a slotted screwdriver to a
90 degree point. But, they are bodges.

I have done both, but they are still no substitute for the right tool.

Frank Wood
***@aol.com

[David Lee]

Frank Wood wrote...

Post by Frank Wood
It's not just the best tools, it's the right ones. Take screws. There are more
varieties of screwheads than I can keep track of. Slotted, Allen, and crosshead
(two sorts), I can keep track of.

This gets just plain stupid - increasingly I have been finding 13 and 15 Amp
plug-tops that require three different screwdrivers in a mixture of slotted
and cross-head to attack case screw, terminals and strain relief.

I even found a 13A plug with a crosshead case screw - when fitting a
domestic lamp as a practical a couple of days ago - toolbox was a mile away
at the other end of the hall but fortunately the small screwdriver on the
end of my Swiss Army Knife's can opener was up to the job! ;-)

David

[Simon Waldman]

Post by David Lee
No, that's the route of the wealthy enthusiastic amateur - buy all the best
tools and the results will be perfect!

Oh, too true - go along to any camera club and meet all the people who
keep thinking that once they save up for that one extra bit of expensive
kit, *then* they will suddenly start taking great photos...

[Frank Wood]

Post by Robotboy8
I happen to agree... but I'm surprised you feel this way, would it not be far
more professional to get the right tool no matter the expense?

I am surprised at your surprise. I certainly can't afford all the tools I might
need, and managements are well-known to be tight fisted.

I spoke of specialist crimping tools, in another post. These can cost up to
$200, and more if you get in all the interchangeable dies.

Frank Wood
***@aol.com

[Robotboy8]

Post by Frank Wood
I am surprised at your surprise. I certainly can't afford all the tools I might
need, and managements are well-known to be tight fisted.
I spoke of specialist crimping tools, in another post. These can cost up to
$200, and more if you get in all the interchangeable dies.

I guess it seemed to me you viewed yourself as more of a technician than a
techie:

http://www.controlbooth.com/content-2.html

[Frank Wood]

Post by Robotboy8
I guess it seemed to me you viewed yourself as more of a technician than a

With my former professional hat on, I regard myself as an Engineer. The guy who
specifies the equipment, superintends its building, checks it out, and passes
it on to the end user. The job may also entail modifying the gear, designing
it, and mending it.

In the theatre, though, I am more a jack-of-all-trades. While principally an
LD, before I got idle I also installed most of our flying (we have 8' of
headroom over the stage, and every rig needs purpose designed), SD, and
electrical installer. How you define such a job is an open question.


Frank Wood
***@aol.com

[Torrance Bell]

I am glad you are in a rich school. Does the school give you that money
or do you fund raise it yourself? You must remember that not all
schools are swimming in as much money as yours apparently is. The drama
department at Chatsworth high school has to fight to get enough money to
go to DTASC 'Festival' and put on two shows. Somewhere around 400
dollars per school year.

Torrance

<snip>

Post by Lee A. Goldstein
I am a senior in high school. Our show budgets range from $20,000 to
$50,000. We have at least 5 mainstage production per school year, and
several hundred other productions including concerts, assemblies, and
outside groups.

[Roger T.]

I am glad you are in a rich school. Does the school give you that money or
do you fund raise it yourself?

The school district theatre that I manage a budget that includes my salary,
a couple of thousand for "expendables, lamps, gels, repairs etc. and that's
it.

I'm paid for 80 hours per month and average around 120 hours per month,
including July and August when although the schools may be out on summer
vacation, the theatre is open for rentals. I last had a raise in 1995 or
1996, not sure when.

The theatre runs at a slight loss and we have to have a couple of fund
raisers every year. We also fund raise for new equipment. The last school
district purchase was a complete new set of draperies because the Fire
Marshall condemned the old ones as they were way past fire retarding date
and the cost of repairs, cleaning and fire proofing the old drapes was about
75% of new ones, so they had to buy new drape. However, this purchase was
debited to the theatre account and we have to cover the cost through fund
raising.

In the 20 odd years I've been there, we have fund raised for a decent sound
system, with surround sound, video projection, and a 24/4 Allan Heath mixer,
two decent stereo amps, four monitor speakers and six SX80 speakers and two
SX180 subs. We have half a dozen SM58 and four wireless Shure Beta 87s.


LX has increase by 12 6x9s, 18 6" fresnals and 24 Par56s. This gives us
around 80 instruments. Unfortunately, the rest are old Electrocontrol
instruments well past their sell by date.

Next find raising project, lighting.


--
Cheers
Roger T.

Home of the Great Eastern Railway
http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra/

[Lee A. Goldstein]

We charge $9 a seat and we often fill our 1,169 seat theatre to full
capacity for every one of six performances per run. That's $63,000.
The money we make is usually given over to the school district and
used for other groups and to fund our upcoming shows.

On the other hand, the football team gets handed over money every year
and they have not won a game for three years.

-Lee A. Goldstein

Post by Torrance Bell
I am glad you are in a rich school. Does the school give you that money
or do you fund raise it yourself? You must remember that not all
schools are swimming in as much money as yours apparently is. The drama
department at Chatsworth high school has to fight to get enough money to
go to DTASC 'Festival' and put on two shows. Somewhere around 400
dollars per school year.
Torrance
<snip>

Post by Lee A. Goldstein
I am a senior in high school. Our show budgets range from $20,000 to
$50,000. We have at least 5 mainstage production per school year, and
several hundred other productions including concerts, assemblies, and
outside groups.

[Simon Waldman]

Post by Roger T.
Personally, being the Manager/TD of a school district owned theatre that
acts primarily as a communtity theatre, I don't believe in giving out
information directly to students. The "correct" and safe path is via the
school's staff.
The last thing anyone wants, from bitter experience, is permitting students
unfettered access to theatre equipment.

What has emerged in teh subsequent discussion is that there are two
related but seperate issues here.

One is whether to allow pupils unfettered access to information, and the
other is whether to allow them similar access to equipment.

That's all, just an observation :-)

[Rusty]

Post by Warren Bowery
There is a manual for the light board, which is a Colortran Innovator
48/96, and the dimmer pack is a Colortran i96. There is also mounted on
the wall back stage near the dimmers a device called a Leviton Light
Keeper. I cannot find any reference to this item on Colortran or Leviton's
websites. The only manual we received was for the control board. Like I
said, service was less than spectacular.

I found the reference to the Lightkeeper system, it appears to be a
programmable set of relays; probably for the fluorosents in the seating
area:

http://www.leviton.com/sections/prodinfo/controls/sheets/litelkeeper4.htm

I suspect the fader/button station(s?) are Remembrance button stations,
also made by Colortran/Leviton:

http://www.colortran.com/catalog/crememberance.html

The datasheets are full of "Shalls" which I find annoying. anyway, I
found a third party website that has instructions on programming the
rememberance controls:

http://www.iseriese.com/dmx512_snapshot.htm

[Warren Bowery]

Rusty - thank you! You have found it! The device is a Remembrance control
station. It does not state "Remembrance" like Colortran's example, but it
states in the literature that custom screening is available. Now, if I can
just get a copy of their instruction manual....

I concur on the "Litekeeper" - it seems to be related to the auditeria
lighting rather than stage lighting.

Post by Rusty
I found the reference to the Lightkeeper system, it appears to be a
programmable set of relays; probably for the fluorosents in the seating
http://www.leviton.com/sections/prodinfo/controls/sheets/litelkeeper4.ht
m
I suspect the fader/button station(s?) are Remembrance button stations,
http://www.colortran.com/catalog/crememberance.html
The datasheets are full of "Shalls" which I find annoying. anyway, I
found a third party website that has instructions on programming the
http://www.iseriese.com/dmx512_snapshot.htm

[Torrance Bell]

Post by E. Lee Dickinson
Warren, it sounds like it's a simple "capture" system... it grabs the DMX
stream and remembers it, sortof like an ETC Reflection. What brand is it?
Do you not have any manuals? Can you not find them online? If you tell us
what brand/model it is, maybe someone can help.

Where in the OP does he not say the brand? BTW, last time I checked,
Colortran is now a subdivision of NSI corp (aka Leviton). You might
want to give NSI a call. It sounds like the contractors that installed
the system are NFG. If I were you (and had some money) I would(ve)
hired a consultant to take care of everything, the contractor is not
there for you, he is there for the mula.

http://www.nsicorp.com
http://www.colortran.com
http://www.colortran.com/catalog/crememberance.html

Torrance

[Warren Bowery]

Thanks for the information. While I had input on what would be included in
the light/sound package, the result far exceeded anything I could have
hoped for. As far as the subcontractor, I obviously had no input - the
general contractor made that call!

Post by Torrance Bell
Where in the OP does he not say the brand? BTW, last time I checked,
Colortran is now a subdivision of NSI corp (aka Leviton). You might
want to give NSI a call. It sounds like the contractors that installed
the system are NFG. If I were you (and had some money) I would(ve)
hired a consultant to take care of everything, the contractor is not
there for you, he is there for the mula.
http://www.nsicorp.com
http://www.colortran.com
http://www.colortran.com/catalog/crememberance.html
Torrance

[Torrance Bell]

again, Thats what consultants are for. I don't know what most general
contractors know about designing theatres. Absolutly do not have an
architect hire a contractor. The consultant is the one person that
should be aking care of everything from design to parts and installment,
with you being at the very top of the food chain. You got lucky I
guess, but I have seen several absolutly outrageous projects, mostly via
Los Angeles Unified School District, who hires based on lowest bidder.
(Even though the company hired to do the job (who hired other
subcontractors) dragged the install out for 5+ years like the SCO case,
milking every cent they could from the school system.)

Torrance

Post by Warren Bowery
Thanks for the information. While I had input on what would be included in
the light/sound package, the result far exceeded anything I could have
hoped for. As far as the subcontractor, I obviously had no input - the
general contractor made that call!

Post by Torrance Bell
Where in the OP does he not say the brand? BTW, last time I checked,
Colortran is now a subdivision of NSI corp (aka Leviton). You might
want to give NSI a call. It sounds like the contractors that installed
the system are NFG. If I were you (and had some money) I would(ve)
hired a consultant to take care of everything, the contractor is not
there for you, he is there for the mula.
http://www.nsicorp.com
http://www.colortran.com
http://www.colortran.com/catalog/crememberance.html
Torrance